[ca-gw] Graywater & the kitchen sink
Oasis Design
oasis at oasisdesign.net
Mon Jan 11 08:58:40 PST 2010
Steve,
Before you get excited, you should look at the standard I'm proposing.
It has separation essentially equivalent to a septic leachfield and
should be easier for regulators to agree to than either a septic
standard (more pathogens) or the greywater standard (less separation).
Though the materials you mention can be found at some level in kitchen
sink water, the greywater route of exposure does not seem to be
significant (perhaps because people have their hands in it before the
water goes down the drain).
Kitchen sink water, in reality, is being distributed illegally on the
surface in hundreds of thousands of installations in the US, many a
century old, some in semi-public installations such as old boy scout
camps, without any problems surfacing in the WBDO or reportable illness
reporting systems.
The primary purpose of the high degree of separation is not to address
an actual, demonstrable health threat, but to address the political
problem you mention.
Art
On 1/11/10 6:40 AM, Steve Bilson wrote:
>
> While the "dark grey" concept of dual codes may sound wonderful,
> kitchen water can contain salmonella, botulism, and ecoli , and those
> pathogens can kill you. The reason I summarily removed kitchen water
> from the greywater stream back in 1992 was so the Legislature could
> get a greywater irrigation code in place. If you think the plumbing
> Gods and health Nazis don't like greywater now, try getting them to
> like "dark" greywater.
>
> I can not support anything along those lines.
>
> Steve Bilson
>
> *From:* ca-standard-bounces at graywater.org
> [mailto:ca-standard-bounces at graywater.org] *On Behalf Of *Oasis Design
> *Sent:* Monday, January 11, 2010 5:49 AM
> *To:* Renee Stoops
> *Cc:* lisa.libby at ci.portland.or.us; jeff.holiman at gmail.com; Travis
> Williams; crunyard at msn.com; mary at plangreen.net;
> greengirl at greengirlpdx.com; mobrien at ci.portland.or.us;
> stephen at greenhammerconstruction.com; ca-standard-graywater.org;
> amandar at ci.portland.or.us; Scheuermann; Brenna Bell; max at imrlive.com;
> Erin Muir; toby at patternliteracy.com; rich at mossbackfarm.com; Lesley
> Adams; julee1974 at hotmail.com; david.zahler at oregonstate.edu;
> jeremy at ecogeeks.net; lisap at serapdx.com; dsaddler at earthadvantage.org;
> bobhat262 at yahoo.com; kool at ua290.org; tbender at nehalemtel.net;
> ejtimm16 at gmail.com; rudyberg at rio.com; buckley at clackamasclt.org;
> cascadia at starband.net; clarkb at serapdx.com;
> info at lando-landscapearchitecture.com; brentfoster;
> joshuaism at yahoo.com; bgates at centralcityconcern.org;
> dennis.wilde at gerdingedlen.com; mark.taratoot at ci.corvallis.or.us;
> tauscher at projectgreenbuild.org; Sue Marshall; melora at recodeoregon.net;
> gina at cascadiagbc.org; michael.a.heumann at state.or.us;
> benamccune at gmail.com; rickvalley at gmail.com; teresah at oeconline.org;
> watershedcenter at spiritone.com; lauradvorak at hotmail.com;
> akane at ci.portland.or.us; dcleek at ci.portland.or.us; Leonard Barrett;
> info at 3estrategies.org; davek at bes.ci.portland.or.us;
> walkerl at desantislandscapes.com; ashepard at earthadvantage.org
> *Subject:* Re: [ca-gw] Graywater & the kitchen sink
>
>
>
> So, in my humble opinion, we should be looking for ONE tier of regulation/detail that INCLUDES kitchen/all greywater sources. Combining the grey wastestreams will likely yield more diverse niches for the microbiology and therefore easier/better treatment results.
>
> All of ecological systems design boils down to /doing what makes sense
> in the context.
>
> /In wetlands the water is the only source of nutrition, so it must
> provide a balanced diet. In the soil, nutrition from water is a less
> critical factor; in most irrigated agriculture water provides zero
> nutrition, and there is a long history of irrigating with greywater
> from this or that single fixture.
>
> Wetlands have good application in Oregon as both a wastewater
> treatment and greywater treatment option. In my opinion, wetland
> standards would suggest, but not require, the application of combined
> wastewater, perhaps noting that the design parameters may be more
> critical for greywater only, or non-kitchen sink greywater.
>
> Kitchen sink water and diaper wash water are neither greywater nor
> blackwater. I suggest that Oregon define these as "dark grey" water
> and regulate them accordingly.
>
> /(I am also going to suggest that California refine it's definition of
> greywater in this way, which is why I cc'd the ca-standard list, which
> you Oregon folks are also welcome to join:
> http://www.graywater.org/listserv . Note that it is focused on
> policy, and technology only as it relates to policy. We also host a
> greywater technology forum at http://www.oasisdesign.net/forum/. At
> some point I am going to have to excuse myself from this discussion,
> though I'm happy to continue the thread in either of these other forums)/
>
> It makes sense, in terms of having the best outcome for the least use
> of resources, to have the flexibility to, say, apply ordinary
> greywater standards to regular grey water, and dark grey water
> standards to dark greywater, when appropriate, and also have the
> option of one solution for all "waste"water combined, when appropriate.
>
> /(For a promising, low-tech, do it yourself solution to the latter,
> see http://www.oasisdesign.net/design/consult/specialties.htm#gs)/
>
> Yours,
>
> Art
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/10/10 9:56 PM, Renee Stoops wrote:
>
> I want to share some greywater conversations I've had with an Israeli engineer I've been working with, who specializes in plant-based/natural treatment systems for any and all kinds of grey to black water. Most of the time he uses subsurface wetlands (horizontal or upflow). He has routinely been installing single house, residential systems that treat at minimum greywater (and often also blackwater). For his systems, grease, fats, oils, etc from kitchen sink water are just valuable nutrient contributions for plant food- never a problem and in fact the opposite. The only thing he will settle out before water enters the wetland are the non-degradables (i.e. mineral material), which he does usually via an underground gravitational settling chamber.
>
> His main concern with greywater was in fact the laundry component- not about bacteria from diapers because they are generally easy to treat. Apparently in Israel, detergents have high boron concentrations that supersede/overwhelm the soil's/ gravel's ability to treat it. Not many plants have high boron tolerance. So, I don't know, is Boron a big problem in Oregon?
>
> What I also know from studies that the CH2M Hill natural treatment team has done in Albany (yes, Oregon) is that when you feed a system with mixed wastestreams, that include Carbon and Nitrogen sources at the same time, for example, you can often get better treatment rates than by isolating either wastestream. That's because some of the microbiology (which is really doing the bulk of the treatment work), including some of the steps of the Nitrogen cycle, is carbon limited and will perform better when 'fed'.
>
> So, in my humble opinion, we should be looking for ONE tier of regulation/detail that INCLUDES kitchen/all greywater sources. Combining the grey wastestreams will likely yield more diverse niches for the microbiology and therefore easier/better treatment results. Plus, on a human psychology note, I know that I often use my kitchen sink for non-kitchen/food related activities and may use the bathroom sink/tub for non-bathroom related activities. So, to assume that we know what's in kitchen sink greywater just because it came from the kitchen sink, is a bit presumptuous. If we have ONE system of specifications/regulations that covers everything that might be in greywater, and treat accordingly, we're safer, not to mention simpler.
>
> Renee Stoops
> SPROut- Sustainable Plant Research and Outreach Center
> 'putting plants to work'
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brenna Bell [mailto:brenna at tryonfarm.org]
> Sent: Sat 01/02/2010 12:28
> To: Brenna Bell
> Cc:mary at plangreen.net <mailto:mary at plangreen.net>; Travis Williams;tauscher at projectgreenbuild.org <mailto:tauscher at projectgreenbuild.org>;melora at recodeoregon.net <mailto:melora at recodeoregon.net>;davek at bes.ci.portland.or.us <mailto:davek at bes.ci.portland.or.us>;akane at ci.portland.or.us <mailto:akane at ci.portland.or.us>;buckley at clackamasclt.org <mailto:buckley at clackamasclt.org>;michael.a.heumann at state.or.us <mailto:michael.a.heumann at state.or.us>;ejtimm16 at gmail.com <mailto:ejtimm16 at gmail.com>;ashepard at earthadvantage.org <mailto:ashepard at earthadvantage.org>;walkerl at desantislandscapes.com <mailto:walkerl at desantislandscapes.com>;jeff.holiman at gmail.com <mailto:jeff.holiman at gmail.com>;watershedcenter at spiritone.com <mailto:watershedcenter at spiritone.com>;max at imrlive.com <mailto:max at imrlive.com>;lauradvorak at hotmail.com <mailto:lauradvorak at hotmail.com>;bobhat262 at yahoo.com <mailto:bobhat262 at yahoo.com>;kool at ua290.org <mailto:kool at ua290.org>;amandar at ci.portland.or.us <mailto:amandar at ci.portland.or.us>;jeremy at ecogeeks.net <mailto:jeremy at ecogeeks.net>;lisa.libby at ci.portland.o <mailto:lisa.libby at ci.portland.or.us>
> r.us <mailto:lisa.libby at ci.portland.or.us>;teresah at oeconline.org <mailto:teresah at oeconline.org>;info at lando-landscapearchitecture.com <mailto:info at lando-landscapearchitecture.com>;clarkb at serapdx.com <mailto:clarkb at serapdx.com>;bgates at centralcityconcern.org <mailto:bgates at centralcityconcern.org>;dcleek at ci.portland.or.us <mailto:dcleek at ci.portland.or.us>;gina at cascadiagbc.org <mailto:gina at cascadiagbc.org>;mark.taratoot at ci.corvallis.or.us <mailto:mark.taratoot at ci.corvallis.or.us>;toby at patternliteracy.com <mailto:toby at patternliteracy.com>;stephen at greenhammerconstructio <mailto:stephen at greenhammerconstruction.com>
> n.com <mailto:stephen at greenhammerconstruction.com>;mobrien at ci.portland.or.us <mailto:mobrien at ci.portland.or.us>;joshuaism at yahoo.com <mailto:joshuaism at yahoo.com>;dsaddler at earthadvantage.org <mailto:dsaddler at earthadvantage.org>;crunyard at msn.com <mailto:crunyard at msn.com>;benamccune at gmail.com <mailto:benamccune at gmail.com>;rudyberg at rio.com <mailto:rudyberg at rio.com>;julee1974 at hotmail.com <mailto:julee1974 at hotmail.com>;lisap at serapdx.com <mailto:lisap at serapdx.com>;dennis.wilde at gerdingedlen.com <mailto:dennis.wilde at gerdingedlen.com>; Sue Marshall; Leonard Barrett;tbender at nehalemtel.net <mailto:tbende%0d%0ar at nehalemtel.net>;rickvalley at gmail.com <mailto:rickvalley at gmail.com>;rich at mossbackfarm.com <mailto:rich at mossbackfarm.com>; Oasis Design;info at 3estrategies.org <mailto:info at 3estrategies.org>;cascadia at starband.net <mailto:cascadia at starband.net>; brentfoster; Lesley Adams; Scheuermann;david.zahler at oregonstate.edu <mailto:david.zahler at oregonstate.edu>;greengirl at greengirlpdx.com <mailto:greengirl at greengirlpdx.com>; Erin Muir; Renee Stoops
> Subject: Graywater& the kitchen sink
>
> Hi friends,
> The first meeting of the Graywater Advisory Committee was great - folks
> are really excited about the task of creating the best graywater rules
> that we can for Oregon.
>
> One of our first tasks as a committee is to discuss what the rules
> should be around graywater from the kitchen sink. Oregon is the first
> state that we know of that includes the kitchen sink as a source of
> graywater, and we have the opportunity to create a model rule. At the
> same time, reuse of water from the kitchen sink is a bit of a challenge
> because of the nature of the things that go down it.
>
> If you have ideas for kitchen sink graywater systems, or know of anyone
> who has such a system, please let me know before the next meeting:
> January 14th.
>
> Also, all the meetings are open to the public, and I encourage anyone
> who is interested to attend and add your voice. Meeting details and
> agendas will be posted on the DEQ's Graywater Advisory Committee webpage
> athttp://www.deq.state.or.us/wq/reuse/graywater.htm
>
> Finally, I'm also looking for information about existing graywater
> systems in Oregon, for a short educational video some of my Recode
> colleagues are making. Do you know of any? We promise to obscure your
> identity!
>
> thanks,
> Brenna
>
>
>
>
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